At a moment of unprecedented attention, investment and opportunity for the emerging field of ESG, leaders are asking: Who is best preparing their organization for the society of the future? Who is innovating today to meet decades-long environmental and social goals? Who is setting standards that catalyze their industry’s change for the better? Who is defining what bold and aspirational look like — and how best to advance that work in practice?

Enter NationSwell’s ESG Next, an exemplary group of investors, executives, authors, philanthropists, social sector leaders, academics, and field builders who are helping to shape business as a force for social and environmental progress, advancing — and even pioneering — the most forward-thinking and effective programs, initiatives, technologies, methodologies, practices, and approaches.

For this installment, NationSwell interviewed Jenny Flores, Head of Small Business Growth Philanthropy at Wells Fargo, about how her experience as an immigrant in America informed her journey to human-centered banking, the unique impact of flexible capital, the importance of fearless philanthropy, and the not-so-secret powers of her approach to collaboration.

Greg Behrman, CEO + Founder, NationSwell: How did your personal and professional journey to the field of ESG begin?

Jenny Flores, Head of Small Business Growth Philanthropy, Wells Fargo: I’m an immigrant to this country; we moved to San Francisco from El Salvador when I was almost three years old. Coming to America was the promise of a better life. We were leaving a country that was war-torn and my parents knew that in America, dreams come true.

But my journey has been defined by questioning what that actually means in practice. There’s this sentiment that in America, you can do anything. But then there’s what it actually takes — that grit — to navigate an unfamiliar system and actually make something big happen.

For me, that means navigating the systems of this beautiful country alongside the people whom I ultimately want to help and serve. I went into banking wanting to learn to underwrite affordable housing because I knew housing was such an important goal for my community; having a home that is affordable and accessible is the number one priority for so many.

That’s what fuels my drive, and that’s what brought me to the industry. And in my time working within it, I’ve learned just how powerful the banking industry really is. It allows you to buy a home or go to college or start a business, so it’s at the core of enabling the American dream.  I made a very deliberate choice to stay in this industry and help influence it to better serve people like me, who have to work that much harder to become executives.

That’s the question at the core of my mission: How do I get banking to see the world through the eyes of people like me — people who may not have that natural runway?

Behrman, NationSwell: How do you make sense of this moment in ESG?

Flores, Wells Fargo: The momentum in ESG right now is going to make it extremely difficult to go backwards. The leaders of the future will need to balance profit and purpose in ways that in the past hadn’t been needed. This is no longer just about compliance — it’s about how leaders can show they’re ready to navigate the opportunities that are still nascent or evolving in a complex society.

We had a recent conversation at a town hall with our employees. We asked ourselves the question, “Are we willing to continue to double down on ESG in the face of opposition from some segments of the population?”

From my personal perspective and taking into account all of the data and the science, we need to take these factors seriously. Yes, we have our traditional oil and gas industries; and yes, they are filling a need. But we also need to transition to a way of doing things that will help a sustainable future to exist. We’re in the position to finance that, and to figure out how to scale that. And that is not something I personally think we should back down from. The banking industry is in a position to help figure out the solutions for our economy today but also for our future needs, and we’re going to do it. Our survival depends on it.

But put aside the politics and just think about it from the reality of the moment, and from the business opportunity. Any company would be foolish not to understand there is a real commercial opportunity present. ESG professionals have the ability to really influence how our understanding of this moment evolves in authentic ways that map into the business priorities that we foresee for our prospective industries: How we bring our employee expertise, how we elevate it, how we connect the dots between our business impact and our impact in the world around the issues we choose to stand by.

Behrman, NationSwell: Can you talk about some of the unique programs or initiatives that you think other ESG practitioners should know about?

Flores. Wells Fargo: Before I embark on a new initiative at any of the companies where I’ve had the privilege of working, I find that there’s this moment when I can center solutions on building equity in the system, and help executives with decision-making power to see a new or different path forward.

Speaking truth to that power is very important. About 60 days after I started at Wells Fargo, Covid came to America. I had to make a choice about how I wanted to frame the work, and I wanted to make sure that we had a shared understanding, without mincing words — not leaving anything up to assumption.

And what I said was, “The financial system as it currently exists does not serve people of color or people from diverse backgrounds well. Period.” I laid out all the reasons I’d seen in my 20-year career in banking that have made that happen, and I told my organization that though I haven’t been at Wells Fargo for very long, I would imagine that some of these reasons play out here, too. And if that’s the case, I reasoned that our response had to be very different than what we would traditionally do — because the urgent need here will grow exponentially, and it’ll grow very quickly.

Within 30 days, businesses were shutting down. The majority of those 41% were Black businesses, 36% Latino Hispanic businesses. It was very clear who was most negatively impacted.

Because of the conversations we started around driving impact for the most vulnerable and under-served , our CEO made a courageous decision: That we were going to give away all of our processing fees from participating in the first round of the Paycheck Protection Program, not even knowing what the final sum total would be.

And that’s how the Open For Business Fund started — with intention built in, and with the understanding that we should build in flexibility where, in the past, we would avoid taking quick, bold action because it was perceived as too risky. Now, we could move forward with our assumptions based in the realities of the communities we served. That’s how we designed it, and it’s been a pride point for the company ever since.

Through our roughly $420 million Open for Business Fund, we’ve reached over 178,000 businesses. 73% of those business owners are low-to-moderate income, 79% are racially or ethnically diverse, over 53% are women business owners. And you could just see the impact happening in those populations that we really sought to reach.

Behrman, NationSwell: What was the impact of those investments?

Flores. Wells Fargo: Of that money, the first $250 million was deployed as very flexible capital, which took a lot of different forms: In one example we made a grant so that the nonprofits we supported could make grants directly to small businesses; In another instance, the investment could have helped a community lender bring down the interest rate for a small business owner’s existing loan; it took a myriad of forms. Impact will be tracked through early 2025, but as of September 2022 organizations funded through the program have raised $1.7 billion dollars in grants and debt to support communities across the country — so essentially we’ve generated six times the initial investment — just based on being flexible and responsive.

The Wells Fargo dollars were catalytic because we were really fast to get into the community. The money went out as grants to nonprofits, as equity on the balance sheets of nonprofits so they could lever that money up. We focused on strengthening the balance sheet of our non-profit grantees so they were able to then absorb additional capital that they raised so that they wouldn’t be in a risky situation themselves. We also utilized loan loss reserves so that if any of those loans went sideways, they could have that on their balance sheet to protect them.

The design was really purposeful and intentional. It helped create and amplify impact. We did a lot of little things that were meaningful to support the strategies and successes of small businesses across the country.

Behrman, NationSwell: What are some other examples of unique initiatives you’re helping to lead at Wells Fargo that are yielding tangible impact?

Flores, Wells Fargo: We’re also lifting up some incredible ideas that I think have the potential to change how small businesses raise money. For example, we are funding the Small Business Exchange, or SMBX, which is a FINRA-registered funding portal and public marketplace for issuing and buying U.S. small business bonds.  The SMBX team has figured out how to help small businesses be able to issue bonds so they can raise capital. And in Washington D.C., we are testing this with the mayor, providing technical assistance to small businesses who can then go on to raise $400,000 or $500,000 as part of a bond offer.

Very often, this support will go to the ideas and leaders that have so many naysayers who challenge them and say, “How are you going to do that? It’s never going to happen.” Those are the people I love to get behind. The future holds so much promise for resilient leaders like them, but we have to think differently about how we assess risk and finance innovation.

The SMBX is just a completely different way of financing businesses, and it has the power to really engage the community. So if I want to invest, get a financial return and drive social impact, I know where to go. The due diligence is completed, and I can invest in businesses in my neighborhood that are going to create jobs and build the economic base of my city.

Behrman, NationSwell: What is it about your approach to this work that has helped you to be an effective leader?

Flores, Wells Fargo: Once something gets approved, I love going full speed on it, and I love helping others reach that velocity — even if it means sitting back and letting them take the wheel. It brings me a lot of joy to see the people around me actively in pursuit of impact, and I like to empower them to take a piece of the initiative and really lead it internally, creating visibility around it. I’m not driven by getting the credit — and not being credit-driven helps bring people to the table with me because they feel like they can collaborate more authentically and freely, and it also empowers them to step up, become advocates and changemakers, and make things happen.

Getting the credit or getting acknowledged isn’t nearly as important as getting someone else in an organization to care about the problem that you’re working on, and getting them moving to work on it in their own way. That’s how change happens in organizations. It’s not one person. It is kind of a movement that happens and then you have people everywhere marching towards a bigger goal. It makes companies better. It makes the culture come to life in a different way. I can’t begin to tell you how happy that makes me.

Basically, my secret power is that I’m a huge collaborator, and I try to do so courageously. I’ll be the first to step up and try to sell something internally, and I might get kicked in the face, but it’s okay.

Behrman, NationSwell: Who are some leaders that inspire your leadership?

Flores, Wells Fargo: My dear friend Lorena Hernandez who previously headed up community impact for Comcast in California. She’s an incredible leader, and a true champion at understanding how to ingrain ESG into the core of your business. I admire the fact that she’s always collaborating with community, and doesn’t just design from her corporate office – she’s always really out there, learning and giving back.

Another person whose wisdom I often seek is Tracy Gray, who is the Founder and Managing Partner at a venture firm called The 22Fund.  Tracy is recognized widely as a multifaceted leader in social and economic equity in finance.  She is brilliant (she is also a rocket scientist) and I have her on speed dial because she is able to break down business models like no one else. I love that Tracy can see the world for what it is and also for the potential we all have to do and be better.  . She’s always thinking about what the present needs of communities are to date, and thinking ahead to how those needs will evolve in the future. I just love talking to her because I feel like she grounds me in the short term, and then inspires me for long-term thinking.

Last but not least is Jacqueline Martinez Garcel over at the Latino Community Foundation. She’s incredible. She’s such a heart-centered leader. Anytime I have the opportunity to be near her, I feel like I leave just spiritually in a different place because she is so grounded in the work, and in how people are feeling.

Behrman, NationSwell: What are some resources that inspire your leadership?

Flores, Wells Fargo: I get inspired by people who are on their A Game, it doesn’t matter what industry they’re in. But I would say I am a big Beyoncé fan. She is heart, mind, soul, everything’s aligned to give you this experience where you feel like, when she’s performing in front of you, she’s singing just to you. Everyone leaves her concerts feeling that way. I’m inspired by how ferocious she is. I want to be that ferocious at impact. I want to be the Beyoncé of social impact.

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To learn more about how our ESG Next honorees are shaping business as a force for social and environmental good, visit the series hub. Wells Fargo is a NationSwell Institutional Member. To learn more about membership in NationSwell’s community of leading social impact and sustainability practitioners, visit our site.

At a moment of unprecedented attention, investment and opportunity for the emerging field of ESG, leaders are asking: Who is best preparing their organization for the society of the future? Who is innovating today to meet decades-long environmental and social goals? Who is setting standards that catalyze their industry’s change for the better? Who is defining what bold and aspirational look like — and how best to advance that work in practice?

Enter NationSwell’s ESG Next, an exemplary group of investors, executives, authors, philanthropists, social sector leaders, academics, and field builders who are helping to shape business as a force for social and environmental progress, advancing — and even pioneering — the most forward-thinking and effective programs, initiatives, technologies, methodologies, practices, and approaches.

For this installment, NationSwell interviewed Lata Reddy, Senior Vice President, Prudential Financial Chair, The Prudential Foundation, about the importance of place-based impact, the power of anchor institutions, the next frontier for ESG measurement, and the importance of tried-and-true approaches alongside newer, more disruptive technologies.

Greg Behrman, NationSwell CEO + Founder: Tell us about how your personal and professional journey led you to ESG work.

Lata Reddy, Senior Vice President, Prudential Financial Chair, The Prudential Foundation: While I was finishing my first year of law school, I had the life-changing opportunity to work and intern with Bryan Stevenson, who is now Executive Director of the Equal Justice Initiative. I was in Atlanta at the time, and Bryan was a young lawyer right out of law school. I spent the next couple of years working with the organization he was working with, which represented people on death row and people who had been incarcerated. 

During the experience, I had the opportunity to speak with those on death row and learned how their experiences were so indicative of structural racism. It raised my consciousness and helped me understand, even as a law student, how the legal realm played a role in perpetuating these inequities, and that one day I could use my experience to address these historic and systemic injustices.

Behrman, NationSwell: How is the work you’ve been leading unique in the social impact and the sustainability field? What distinguishes you from others working in ESG?

Reddy, Prudential: Prudential started this work early, we take more risks with our capital than others do, and we stay in the work longer.

Our organization has been ahead of the curve in that we’ve thought about the work we do from an impact lens for over 50 years. Our ethos was formed in Newark, New Jersey. It’s where we were founded almost 150 years ago, and it’s where we’ve stayed, where our headquarters are to this day. 

We’ve learned so much while operating in a community that has ridden so many waves of this country’s history — and that includes the good, the bad, and the ugly. We’ve had the opportunity to engage in the community of Newark, which is our front yard, backyard, all around. 

Early on, the company bundled our resources together. It started with philanthropy, other cash giving and corporate contributions, employee volunteerism, and impact investing — long before anyone was calling it impact investing. We were spending the capital anyway, so we wanted to make sure we did it in a way that maximized impact. It morphed over the years, and we grew exponentially: about two years back, we had reached a billion dollars in impact assets under management on the impact investing side. And that, by the way, was all Prudential balance sheet money, so our own capital that we had invested in that way. We had doubled the size of our philanthropy, which for us is $35 million annually, and our total cash giving is more than that.

We do it in a place-based way in Newark, and we continue to be deeply engaged in a broader set of issues because we know that these systems are interacting with each other; through Prudential’s deep history and commitment to Newark residents, we’ve helped redefine the place of an anchor institution in its community. That effort has been transformative. We now have a larger set of institutions working together in a very concerted way, and so I think there’s a lot of stickiness to that and people are really taking to that, which is exciting to see.

It is a function of being the kind of corporation we are. We’re in the business of managing risk and pooling risk, and thinking about it over the long term. I think we all need to be taking more risks, and I would argue that it’s imperative for us as businesses to engage a broader set of stakeholders, and the only way we’re going to do that is through nontraditional stakeholders, and that inherently will involve a little bit of risk. It’s informed risk, or it can be, and you can mitigate the risk. So there’s the business imperative which is clearly a moral imperative for us to do more with our capital.

Behrman, NationSwell: What initiatives are you leading that exemplify your approach?

Reddy, Prudential: Somebody once said to me, and I love this phrase, people live their lives horizontally, not vertically. Systems interact, and you have to think holistically about a place.

Years ago, Prudential wanted to redefine what it means to be an anchor institution in Newark. So we did that by casting a wider net: We brought in cultural organizations, other corporations, universities; really, all facets of the community writ large. It was a core group of about six, and it’s grown since then. We commissioned some research to look at opportunities for us as anchors, to do some fact-finding around small businesses, like what would a procurement initiative look like, and the realization that if we just allocate an additional percentage of our spend to Newark businesses, we can exponentially impact the local economy.  

And then it grew to a hiring initiative around hiring local Newark residents, and then living initiatives — meaning, how do we get more of our employees to live in the city and have that take hold? That approach is what we’re still managing today. It started about five years ago or so, and we’ve had some great success working with Mayor Ras Baraka; we’ve actually helped him achieve some of his goals around making sure that 2,020 Newark residents had jobs at anchor institutions by 2020, which we did — and we well surpassed that number. 

That success also impacted Gov. Phil Murphy and his work with the CEO collective that our CEO is part of, especially as we looked at post-Covid recovery strategies for the state of New Jersey. So some of what we did in Newark is now a part of the state’s strategy, so we were able to grow it there.

Berhman, NationSwell: What’s your take on ESG as a framework, what’s your read on this moment? How do you make sense of the field, where are we, and where we’re going?

Reddy, Prudential: This all began with negative screening. Many of us remember the time when the prevailing sentiment was, “First, do no harm.” We avoided investing in programs, initiatives, or really anything that had the potential to cause harm. 

Now, it’s moved more into a conversation where we’re mitigating risk against Environmental, Social, and Governance factors. That’s an important shift, but I’ve still yet to hear very many conversations about impact — especially around proactively and affirmatively trying to create impact in whatever we do. 

I’m hoping the shifts that brought us to this current moment will accelerate us towards that. We’ve certainly talked about it in the impact investing space, where there’s an intention to create impact alongside financial returns, so I’m hoping that other players in the social impact and sustainability field will think about it as well.

Behrman, NationSwell: What are your aspirations for the field? Where do you think it’s going, and what will drive its progress, its evolution?

Reddy, Prudential: For me, the next frontier is tying it to business value, like how do we measure the impact we’re creating in a way that’s also demonstrating business value? I believe deeply you can create business value by going after societal impact, but it’s on us to prove that out. And the more we can prove it, the more baked in to our business strategy it will be. Our field will evolve when businesses make it core to what they do, rather than something they keep on the sidelines.

Behrman: How has your leadership evolved?

Reddy, Prudential: One lesson I’ve learned, which I think every leader learns, is that you can never overcommunicate. Try to communicate the same message in different ways because it will resonate with different people at different times in different ways. It’s an obvious but important one. The other thing is, leaders look around corners — that’s our job, and we get paid for it. But doubling back to bring people along is usually necessary in helping people to move forward. Helping people to see it on their own so that they have the buy-in and taking the necessary time to do that is really important as well.

I’ve found that having a “true north” for what you’re trying to get to is what has helped cut through the noise, this audience today, the messaging, so that at the core, it’s the same, and it’s based on what you believe and what you’re trying to execute against. And then on the margins you can modulate to the particular audience.

My true north is about leveling the playing field. That’s what I think about when I think about my personal purpose.

Behrman, NationSwell: What is one thing you think folks are really missing? Anything you would move people a couple degrees over on?

Reddy, Prudential: I think in some ways people are often looking for the next shiny object, the next innovation, the next disruption. That’s very intellectually exciting, but when you talk about a specific place, it’s quite often the tried and true. It’s building authentic relationships. It’s engaging the very people who know best about what’s needed, it’s about an asset framing — so not talking about the problems, but framing it all through what a community has, and the opportunities to make that even better.

Behrman, NationSwell: Who are some leaders you really admire in the space?

Reddy, Prudential: Paul Polman, author of “Net Positive” and former CEO of Unilever. I think he’s done so much for this notion of purpose, and really having purpose as a core part of your business as your brand. Under Ajay Banga’s leadership, Mastercard did some really great work, and they were very clear about the purpose, clear about the fact that change needs to be brought about through business. When you have the vision and the clarity, everything else just falls into place.

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To learn more about how our ESG Next honorees are shaping business as a force for social and environmental good, visit the series hub.

At a moment of unprecedented attention, investment and opportunity for the emerging field of ESG, leaders are asking: Who is best preparing their organization for the society of the future? Who is innovating today to meet decades-long environmental and social goals? Who is setting standards that catalyze their industry’s change for the better? Who is defining what bold and aspirational look like — and how best to advance that work in practice?

Enter NationSwell’s ESG Next, an exemplary group of investors, executives, authors, philanthropists, social sector leaders, academics, and field builders who are helping to shape business as a force for social and environmental progress, advancing — and even pioneering — the most forward-thinking and effective programs, initiatives, technologies, methodologies, practices, and approaches.

For this installment, NationSwell interviewed Justina Nixon-Saintil, Vice President and Chief Impact Officer at IBM, about why passion and partnership are paramount to an ESG leader’s success, why engineering and corporate social responsibility work go hand-in-hand, and why the future of ESG might just be its “S.”

Greg Behrman, NationSwell CEO + Founder: Tell us about your personal and professional journey, and how it led you to ESG work.

Justina Nixon-Saintil, Vice President and Chief Impact Officer, IBM: If you told me 30 years ago when I was studying to be an engineer that I would be working on corporate social responsibility and ESG, I would not have connected the dots to see how that could be possible. My focus then was on getting a job in engineering that would let me take care of myself. I’m an immigrant from Dominica who came to the South Bronx, an area that has been challenged by its high crime rate. My mom is an educator, and she really pushed the idea that education is the way out of poverty — how we become successful, here and anywhere.

But when you think about it, what engineers actually do is solve some of the biggest problems in the world. I always loved taking things apart and putting them back together just to see how different pieces could fit, and how things worked on the inside. And in that sense, my education in engineering is directly connected to where I am and what I do today.

Behrman, NationSwell: How do you think about this moment in ESG?

Nixon-Saintil, IBM: There’s such a sense of urgency right now. When you think about how quickly technology is advancing, when you think about climate change and the urgency around it, when you think about the pandemic and its global impact, you realize this unprecedented urgency is driving everyone to figure out how you move from theory to scaling, and reaching the masses — because these pressures are impacting so many people.

You have marginalized populations who are being left behind. You have vulnerable communities who are being impacted by climate change. You have diverse subsets of the population who are still underrepresented in tech and other well-paying fields. And everyone is coming together now to say, this is not something any one company or any one entity can do alone. 

I remember going to meetings a long time ago where we would always start by identifying the problem we were trying to solve, and I would sit there and think, “We already know the problem.” It would frustrate me. What’s different about this current moment is you don’t have conversations like that anymore. It’s not a discussion about what the problem might be, it’s a move to determine how we scale and invest and actually solve the problems that we know exist.

Behrman, NationSwell: Where do you see the field going next, and what’s driving that shift?

Nixon-Saintil, IBM: I just read that almost half of Fortune 500 companies have made an aggressive commitment to reach carbon neutrality in the near future. And it made me think, what does a commitment like that look like for the S in ESG? 

I think you’re going to start seeing a lot more excitement and focus on social factors like human capital management. We’ll still talk about the E and the G, but when we do, we’ll approach it from a way that always straddles the S — like the just transition, or how companies are thinking about the vulnerable communities they impact as part of their net zero commitments.

But along with this excitement, there’s anxiety. So many business leaders are waiting to know more about how we’ll be regulated. A lot of ESG reporting up until this point has been voluntary — ours at IBM has. But we know mandatories are coming, and more will come, and everyone is waiting to see what will be expected of us. I don’t think anything will come as a surprise — especially if you’ve been doing work like this for a while — but I do think we all want to know more about the shape of the landscape.

And where there’s anxiety and excitement, there’s opportunity. Companies and organizations that are thinking through this are looking to us to help solve challenges with them, and we’re excited to partner. 

Behrman, NationSwell: Can you tell us about some initiatives at IBM that are exemplars of your approach?

Nixon-Saintil, IBM: When I started at IBM, there was so much goodness across the company. There were so many things we were doing in the environmental space, in the social space, in the governance space, but at the time, there wasn’t a comprehensive way of communicating this work and making sure that we brought even more awareness to it.

In 2022, we launched our ESG strategy, a framework called IBM Impact. And that was a new initiative for us as a business. I’ve been really proud of this because when you just talk — whether it’s external to investors, internal to your team or to clients — it’s really easy to talk about our framework, our ten commitments that are exemplars that we are going to continue to demonstrate progress against, and it really leads to further conversations, because it’s so much easier to understand how it all fits together. 

I also lead our IBM Sustainability Accelerator, a new initiative my team launched in 2022 that leverages the solutions, software, and expertise of our business around data, and the environmental intelligence suite around our hybrid cloud, and how we bring those solutions and software to non-profit organizations in order to support vulnerable communities that are most impacted by climate change. So we are really excited about the work that we’re doing in the sustainability space. 

The last initiative I want to highlight is the IBM SkillsBuild. Last year, we made a commitment to skill 30 million people by 2030, a huge and ambitious commitment. I felt we needed a north star as a company, because we’ve been a leader in the work that we’ve done around education, skills, badging, and credentials — 50% of our job postings do not require applicants to have a four year degree requirement, a barrier that has left so many populations struggling to find employment opportunities. 

When we looked at all of the work we’re doing across the board, I felt like we could make a significant commitment to skill 30 million people globally. And in fact, last year we we reached around 3.5 million people. It’s just something we can do only with partnerships on the ground, with non-profit organizations, with academic institutions that are closest to the people that we want to impact. So I’m just really excited about those three things.

Behrman, NationSwell: How do you approach social impact and sustainability work? What distinguishes or differentiates you from some of your peers?

Nixon-Saintil, IBM: First, there’s my passion; it’s a must in a role like mine. The most successful people who drive this work are those who are passionate about how business can solve issues like these.  The second thing is, I approach this from the point of view that these problems are solvable through your strategy, which means you have to understand how your company makes money and does business.

Behrman, NationSwell: Can you tell us about some leaders whose work you really admire?

Nixon-Saintil, IBM: I came to IBM under CEO Arvind Krishna’s leadership, and I’ve been impressed with his focused and thoughtful leadership. And that way of thinking has permeated through the whole company. I would say another person is Rose Stuckey Kirk, Chief Corporate Responsibility Officer at Verizon. I learned so much from her about how to “walk the halls” to get the alignment on the things you want to create and move forward, and how to communicate impact so people can understand what you’re doing in a clear and transparent way.

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To learn more about how our ESG Next honorees are shaping business as a force for social and environmental good, visit the series hub. IBM is a NationSwell Institutional Member. To learn more about membership in NationSwell’s community of leading social impact and sustainability practitioners, visit our site.

At a moment of unprecedented attention, investment and opportunity for the emerging field of ESG, leaders are asking: Who is best preparing their organization for the society of the future? Who is innovating today to meet decades-long environmental and social goals? Who is setting standards that catalyze their industry’s change for the better? Who is defining what bold and aspirational look like — and how best to advance that work in practice?

Enter NationSwell’s ESG Next, an exemplary group of investors, executives, authors, philanthropists, social sector leaders, academics, and field builders who are helping to shape business as a force for social and environmental progress, advancing — and even pioneering — the most forward-thinking and effective programs, initiatives, technologies, methodologies, practices, and approaches.

For this installment, NationSwell interviewed Letitia Webster, Managing Director + Chief Sustainability Officer, Merchant Banking Division, Goldman Sachs, about what the precipice of this moment in ESG means for sustainability leaders, the importance of integrating corporate social responsibility across your entire business, and the leaders that inspire her. 

Greg Behrman, CEO + Founder, NationSwell: How did your professional and personal journey lead you to the field of ESG, social impact, and sustainability?

Letitia Webster, Managing Director + Chief Sustainability Officer, Merchant Banking Division, Goldman Sachs: When I lived in Telluride, there was a film festival they held called the Telluride Mountainfilm that celebrates important stories that need to be told within mountain communities — by and large, stories that celebrate a vibrant mountain culture with a focus on the environment and and on how it affects our most vulnerable populations. 

It helped to open my eyes to global injustice. I was very young — just out of college, and it informed my perspective. I was running a small non-profit in the region focused on the environment, and it became clear to me that I needed to make this more of my career path. I moved to the Bay Area, worked at The North Face, and while that was fun, I realized that what we were marketing — these big, pristine, wild places — was actually not what was happening in our supply chain, not just at The North Face, but in general across all products and sectors outsourcing to Asia. So I started the sustainability program at The North Face and it’s been my journey ever since.

Honestly, I’ve been passionate about this work since I was a child. It’s in my blood, and it’s so intuitive to me. It always pained me when I saw trees being chopped down for developments — I’d always wonder who was speaking up on behalf of the environment? Where are the birds going to go, the deer, everything that depends on them being there? 

But as I became more sophisticated and understanding of all of the unintended consequences and the ramifications of this work, it became crystal clear to me that there actually was no one speaking up, there was no voice in so many places for communities and the environment that were being impacted by decisions like that.

Behrman, NationSwell: How do you make sense of what this moment means for ESG and its field builders?

Webster, Goldman Sachs: We’ve made a remarkable amount of progress in 25 years,  but there’s highs and lows through all of this. Obviously, the publishing of Silent Spring was a significant milestone in turning the tide and raising awareness on these issues, and designating Earth Day was a big high. But there are big lows that come out of it as people lose focus and competing interests take over.

Sustainability has always been based in the science of what is actually happening to human and environmental health. Unfortunately, the science argument was not always understood from an economic perspective — but the science does impact the economy. And so it’s only been a recent development that we’ve started to see the sustainability argument become rooted in the business argument. You start to understand the cost of these externalities, how they impact your business, and how you approach embedding those material risks in your financial considerations.

When Covid hit, people were worried sustainability would take a backseat, and in fact it only heightened awareness of it. As our country has grown more divided in recent years, sustainability leaders have had to navigate an even more complex environment. Despite this, the reality of the increasing intensity of the impacts taking place are actually motivating investors and businesses to go even faster.

Behrman, NationSwell: What are some other factors driving movement in the field?

Webster, Goldman Sachs: Organizations like SASB have helped to evolve this work, making it more sophisticated, accountable, and transparent; while social media and NGOs helped amplify a broader sense of what’s happening in the world, from who makes our clothes to the carbon intensity of our beef, and now there’s a groundswell of consumer support for sustainability — and pressure on organizations to be more sustainable as their awareness grows more heightened.

ESG is maturing as a practice.  Companies have come along with it as have consumers.  Investors are at this precipice where they now understand the issue and their role in it. This heightened focus from investors is creating a tsunami of effort and impact as firms organize around this to integrate it into their investment approach and practices.

Behrman, NationSwell: What are some of the challenges?

Webster, Goldman Sachs: Sustainability work and the knowledge around it were very isolated at first. Now, it’s opened wide up and there is a deep desire to understand it, integrate it, and do something about it.  However there is a proliferation of frameworks, reporting requirements, and regulations. These are not always aligned; they can cause a great deal of inefficiency and be unproductive, which is causing a bit of chaos in the system.  

We need a more focused and targeted approach globally. We need clarity on expectations and reporting, just as there is guidance on general accounting principles and SEC reporting. Otherwise we fill out spreadsheets and questionnaires all day long, and don’t have time to do the real work to improve on our impact.

We have to get to that point because we’ll be able to consolidate the most material issues, and we just have to be able to focus. Really clear, crisp policy is the most important thing, and I think that includes a carbon tax.

In this moment, we are seeing these macro forces underscore the importance of integrating even deeper. We just need to stay focused on the task at hand. 

Behrman, NationSwell: What is it about your approach that differentiates you from your peers in sustainability?

Webster, Goldman Sachs: My approach, which has been refined over years of coaching and mentorship, tries to bring people to make this work inclusive and welcoming. I think that’s a really important piece of success in this field.  At the end of the day, sustainability has to be embedded into every single business function. It cannot be a standalone, isolated leadership activity where we are taking ownership or control of all of the work. It has to be dispersed, and it has to come from servant leadership — a leadership that is humbled by everything that must be done, a leadership that is visionary about where we need to go and how we get there, and a leadership that understands the goals of all key stakeholders and how this work benefits the business.

And so, it has to play this careful balance of bringing people in to that shared vision that we have and inviting people in to join us and then supporting those people in that journey and making sure everyone is part of it and understands their role in doing so.

My passion and commitment have been my fuel — this is really hard work, there’s no doubt about it. Especially 15 years ago, when doors were slammed in your face and no one wanted to hear from you. We had to literally kick the door down, but now people are more prepared. The challenge is making sure they’re listening to it in a way that they can absorb, in a way that they can engage with. You can’t lecture them, you can’t shame them, you can’t fear them.

For me, it’s all about letting your personal purpose guide your approach to your work. And personal purpose is all about three concentric circles. One is, what are you best at in the world? The second is, what are you passionate about — for me, that’s sustainability and giving people a voice. And then the third is, what does the world need from you?

Behrman, NationSwell: Who are some leaders whose work inspires you?

Webster, Goldman Sachs: I had the opportunity to see David Brower, the founder of the Sierra Club, speak right before he passed away. Listening to his stories — and the perseverance and grit that he had — it was just phenomenal.  For those earliest of environmental leaders to have that level of vision and commitment, is something I am in awe of and so grateful for.

Bill McDonough is a profound thinker whose work, specifically Cradle to cradle when it came out in 2004, transformed the way I thought about Sustainability and  how we can approach the opportunity for systemic change.  It was pretty revolutionary of him to go back to these ancient concepts of turning waste streams into nutrients for new products- he modernized the concept of a circular economy.  And, what he did to completely green the Ford River Rouge Truck Plant was fairly revolutionary  – it set the new standard.  He’s fantastic.

And a bit closer to home, I’d also have to say Hannah Jones. When she became the chief sustainability officer at Nike, it showed me that  I could do this work as my full time career, it didn’t have to something I pursued on the side.

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To learn more about how our ESG Next honorees are shaping business as a force for social and environmental good, visit the series hub. Goldman Sachs is a NationSwell Institutional Member. To learn more about membership in NationSwell’s community of leading social impact and sustainability practitioners, visit our site.

At a moment of unprecedented attention, investment and opportunity for the emerging field of ESG, leaders are asking: Who is best preparing their organization for the society of the future? Who is innovating today to meet decades-long environmental and social goals? Who is setting standards that catalyze their industry’s change for the better? Who is defining what bold and aspirational look like — and how best to advance that work in practice?

Enter NationSwell’s ESG Next, an exemplary group of investors, executives, authors, philanthropists, social sector leaders, academics, and field builders who are helping to shape business as a force for social and environmental progress, advancing — and even pioneering — the most forward-thinking and effective programs, initiatives, technologies, methodologies, practices, and approaches.

For this installment, Greg Behrman, CEO + Founder of NationSwell, sat down with Amanda Nusz, Target Senior Vice President of Corporate Responsibility, to talk about the connectivity between ESG and business growth, and the importance of co-creating within your business and across your stakeholders.

Behrman, NationSwell: What is some of the work you’re leading that you’d hold up as a real exemplar of unique and effective approaches to the field of ESG?

Nusz, Target: We have undertaken several initiatives that are advancing our Target Forward sustainability ambitions. One that I’m particularly proud of is our work with Bridgeforth Farms, a fifth-generation, Black-owned family farm. By using cotton sustainably sourced from Bridgeforth Farms, we developed a selection of exclusive tee-shirts sold during Black History Month.

This alliance is unlocking growth opportunities for both of our businesses. It also inspired us to pursue new ways of working across our teams and the ways we operate with all of our external partners to enhance traceability and transparency throughout the sourcing journey.  

Our partnership and work with Bridgeforth Farms illustrates how important it is to not treat environmental and social issues as silos. They can and should work hand in hand to drive progress on all facets of sustainability and sustainable business practices. 

Behrman, NationSwell: Internally, it sounds like there’s an effort to socialize folks around some of these best practices. How do you do that in practice ?

Nusz, Target: The idea of co-creation is the central component to our process and our progress at Target. It’s a principle to which we’ve anchored our new sustainability strategy, Target Forward, which sets a vision to co-create an equitable and regenerative future with our guests, partners and communities. This means it’s a strategy built for collaboration across our business and with our partners, and for upskilling in sustainability for every member of the Target team. At every step, our principles of listening and collaboration shape our decisions and our ability to execute on our ambitions to design and elevate sustainable brands, innovate to eliminate waste, and accelerate opportunity and equity.

We know the work will be better if we do it together.

And that’s not just true of our work at Target headquarters — it’s true in our stores. For the majority of the stores we open, we’re in the community for months, if not years, before the store opening to build community relationships and understand how our stores can have meaningful presence and create meaningful impact for the community. 

It’s just one example of how we are enabling sustainable practices, decision making, and co-creation in every corner of our business, recognizing that impact and progress will be driven from every part of our organization. 

Greg Behrman, CEO + Founder, NationSwell: What’s driving you to carry out this work?

Amanda Nusz, Target: The bold sustainability ambitions being set in the business community are truly remarkable, as is the growing recognition that sustainability strategies are business strategies. The potential to drive positive impact and growth has never been more apparent, and demand for action has never been higher.

It’s energizing to see so many working to meaningfully answer that call, and it’s energizing for me personally as I reflect on the opportunity in front of us to accelerate growth through sustainable practices. 

Behrman, NationSwell: As you look at the field of sustainability and ESG and its growing prominence in the business dialogue, how do you make sense of the current moment?

Nusz, Target: I can’t help but always think about this moment — and what it means for business — in terms of growth. If you look at everything a business is trying to do, and you ask yourself, “Out of all of these goals, what really matters? What’s the role of business?” I strongly believe the role of business is to show sustainable growth — a phrase that has two meanings. 

At Target, we are mindful of the fact that business growth must be grounded in environmental and social sustainability practices; and, that the decisions we make and direction we take as a business must be built to last. Understanding the critical issues in your business model, and then relentlessly focusing on what happens in your model, can really unlock what it means to grow, and to have a brand that people love, need, and celebrate.

Behrman, NationSwell: Who are some leaders in the space who you really admire?

Nusz, Target: With co-creation at the core of our sustainability commitments, we have the opportunity to work alongside so many organizations that are advancing and accelerating sustainable growth.

Partners like the United Negro College Fund with which we’ve created the Target Scholars program to provide 1,000 students at HBCUs with scholarships, mentoring, internship and networking opportunities. And the PENSOLE Lewis College of Business & Design in Detroit, which offers free tuition to aspiring Black designers, engineers and leaders. 

Closed Loop Partners is activating meaningful work to advance circularity across the business community — and we’re grateful for our partnership with them and other retailers in The Consortium to Reinvent the Retail Bag. 

And we continue to be energized by the innovation we’re seeing across brand partners to advance sustainability with our guests. Our Target Zero initiative has seen brand partners like Burt’s Bees, PLUS, Grove Co. and more developing products and packaging designed to be refillable, reusable or compostable, made from recycled content, or made from materials that reduce the use of plastic.

Behrman, NationSwell: And what are some books or resources that have been really formative or influential for you in this space?

Nusz, Target: I’m always on the lookout for books that help me inspire our team to uncover their strengths and ideas that can advance our sustainability strategy — in particular our longstanding commitments to diversity, equity and inclusion. 

The Overstory by Richard Powers is a book that opened up a great sense of connection and understanding of the complex relationship between nature and humans as well as the importance of family, bio- and cultural diversity. And I found James D White and Krista White’s Anti-Racist Leadership to be an important resource for leaders working on designing and creating great places and cultures for all. 

I also find many podcasts a source of inspiration, including How to Save a Planet, especially the 2021 episodes with Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson.

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To learn more about how our ESG Next honorees are shaping business as a force for social and environmental good, visit the series hub. To learn more about NationSwell’s community of our country’s leading social impact and sustainability practitioners, visit our site.

At a moment of unprecedented attention, investment, and opportunity for the emerging field of ESG, leaders are asking: Who is best preparing their organization for the society of the future? Who is innovating today to meet decades-long environmental and social goals? Who is setting standards that catalyze their industry’s change for the better? Who is defining what bold and aspirational work looks like — and how best to advance that work in practice?

Enter NationSwell’s ESG Next, an exemplary group of social impact and sustainability leaders who are shaping business as a force for social and environmental progress, advancing — and even pioneering — the most forward-thinking and effective programs, initiatives, technologies, methodologies, practices, and approaches.

For this installment, Greg Behrman, CEO + Founder of NationSwell, sat down with Nili Gilbert, Vice Chairwoman of Carbon Direct, to talk about her personal journey to sustainable finance, why equitable solutions are only possible with cross-sector collaboration, and why she thinks ESG won’t be enough to get us to where we need to be.

Greg Behrman, CEO + Founder, NationSwell: How did your personal journey lead you to ESG? Is there a defining life experience or circumstance that drew you to social impact work?

Nili Gilbert, Vice Chairwoman, Carbon Direct: When I was in college at Harvard, I had the opportunity to design my own major, and studied the interplay between social movements and economic progress over time — of course, economics and finance also affect society and culture, creating a kind of cycle where neither ultimately exists in a vacuum.

After I graduated, I went to work for an international development organization, which was guided by the belief that if we could build strong local financing vehicles in low-income countries, we could beneficially support communities’ visions for social progress as well.

A lot of what we were helping to create was intangible value, societal value, which it’s hard to put a price on. I eventually became obsessed with the question of how we put prices on the things that we care about in the world. I thought about it all the time; I started a dedicated journal so I could write through it. And what I realized is that, somewhere out there, there are certain people who have an outsized voice in shaping the conversation of what we value as a society.

And around the time that I turned 22 years old, I said to myself, “I’m going to become one of those people.”

Behrman, NationSwell: How do you make sense of this moment in ESG? What is promising, and what are the pitfalls?

Gilbert, Carbon Direct: I think we’re actually in a moment where we’re advancing ESG. When I first started in this field, the phrase was “mission-driven investing.” That phrase grew out of the centuries-old “socially responsible investing.” In about 2005, this all evolved into ESG.

I don’t consider myself a leader just in the ESG space anymore. After years of working hard on ESG, I came to feel that it’s not going to be enough to really get us all the way to where we need to be. Because when you look at ESG, it’s a way of taking traditional business models and reframing them. Reframing isn’t going to get us to net zero. Reframing hasn’t proven successful in addressing social inequity. As a matter of fact, we’re reaching peak global inequity, and peak greenhouse gas emissions — all after almost two decades of ESG.

Behrman, NationSwell: Does this mean you’ve started to reject ESG?

Gilbert, Carbon Direct: I’m definitely not speaking from the point of view of the anti-woke capitalism movement, and I wouldn’t say this is a rejection of ESG — although there are some strategies which are classified as ESG, which could merit more scrutiny. But if you look at many ESG factors and approaches, it’s often about the measuring and the metrics of inputs. And now, I think we’re moving towards thinking more about the outputs from the process: the implementation and the impact.

I believe this is one of the reasons the net zero movement took on so much momentum before COP26: it’s measurable against a targeted outcome on the ground — reducing carbon emissions. We can ask: Have we limited global warming to one and a half degrees or not? This is the carbon budget, how much emissions are we putting out, and how do we get that number down to zero? And I hope that we’re starting to ask clear, direct questions about social goals and outcomes as well. I would say that we just need a more goal-oriented way of thinking about actual impact instead of just counting up inputs like whether there’s a sustainability report, or how many are on the board of a company.

Behrman, NationSwell: What caused this shift in thinking?

Gilbert, Carbon Direct: It happened back during the deepest part of the pandemic, before we had a vaccine. We were all sitting at home. We didn’t know what the future held for us. The social inequities that we’ve always faced were laid so bare in how different people were affected by the COVID crisis. We had people protesting in the streets after the murder of George Floyd. The climate community was originally worried that we would fall behind on our environmental ambitions because the social concerns became so overwhelming. But that didn’t end up happening. The opposite happened.

I was sitting there thinking, how are we going to get out of this? I’d felt like I’d been doing something good and useful for the world, but had this helped? Is this helping? Where is this going? How are we going to get to where we need to go?

The Rockefeller Family institutions where I chair the Investment Committees made our net zero pledges simultaneously during the pandemic. At the David Rockefeller Fund, we were more than 90% ESG aligned, and we “took the temperature” of our portfolio, as if our investments were the whole global economy, and found that we were still in line for global warming by 2050 of nearly 4 degrees — when we know that we need to limit this to 1.5 degrees. And I was like all this ESG, all this counting up the inputs, it hasn’t resulted in the outcomes that we need.

Last month, we just reached peak greenhouse gas emissions again. We reached peak coal use. That’s what I mean when I talk about this march of progress from SRI to ESG, and how I hope we’re moving more into a focus on outcomes and impact. We have to, because the idea of what happens if we don’t get this right is unimaginable.

Behrman, NationSwell: And what’s changed for you since this shift in your thinking on ESG?

Gilbert, Carbon Direct: I took the tough decision to resign from the firm that I had co-founded a decade prior because I was so worried about the world being off course. It was so very hard to say goodbye to my team, to put down something that we built. But I thought that what would be even harder is if we all end up living in a “four degree world” with extreme inequality. And so I said, “I have to try.”

That journey brought me to Carbon Direct, a company that has two separate businesses under one umbrella. One of the businesses is Carbon Direct Capital Management, which is focused on climate solutions and investing in technologies to decarbonize industry and build the new green economy. The other business, Carbon Direct Inc., supports clients on their decarbonization journeys — from carbon reductions to carbon removals.

The way I see it is, we have this high-emitting old economy, and we know that we need to get to zero emissions by 2050 in a way that also meets our longstanding social goals. We need to rebalance out of the old economy into the new one, on time. But one thing that we don’t talk about enough is that in order to get to that new portfolio, it’s not just that we need to stop doing a lot of things, we also need to build up a whole bunch of new things which will underpin the economy of the future.

So at COP26, it was amazing to be able to represent the leadership of the Glasgow Financial Alliance for Net Zero (GFANZ), in which the finance sector had come forward with over 400 net zero pledges. GFANZ now represents over $150 trillion in capital, and almost 50% of all private finance capital in the world. The private sector, in general, came forward with thousands of net zero pledges in Glasgow, and since then we have been marching from pledges to implementation. What this looks like is moving from the top-down frameworks that we have — for example, we know we need to get global emissions to net zero, which is very top down — into real bottom-up work. It’s understanding each sector’s transition plan, which is unique based upon business models, and the technical solutions that are available to them. It’s also about understanding what regional pathways and contributions will be, which is unique based upon their starting points and natural attributes.

And at the end of the day, it’s bottom-up work, asset by asset, ton by ton of greenhouse gas emissions, that will take us down to zero.

Behrman, NationSwell: What’s something about your work at Carbon Direct that other social impact leaders should know?

Gilbert: Beyond my passion for implementation and impact, I have a strong appreciation for the fact that we can’t solve big problems like climate change in isolation. We really need to emphasize a just transition, which appreciates the deep connection between our social goals and the environmental ones. It’s not really possible to separate them, partially because of the way that the fossil economy has been built on the backs of specific communities here at home and around the world.

And so, if we want to be able to solve the climate problem, we have to go to where the emissions are, which means place-based solutions and justice. We need to understand the labor transition for workers in high emitting sectors. We need to understand the intersection of climate with gender and race.

We need to think about global justice across the north and south, where two-thirds of the remaining investments that need to be made to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees need to be made outside of North America and Europe. The Justice 40 provisions in the U.S. climate bill, the Inflation Reduction Act, call for 40% of the benefits to accrue to previously underinvested communities, and to those which will be most affected by the transition. These groups are, of course, overlapping.

One of the things that I’m most proud of in 2022 is that Carbon Direct has hired Dr. Christian Braneon as our full-time Head of Climate Justice to lead us in this work.

Behrman: Who are some leaders that you admire, and whose work and accomplishments inspire your leadership?

Gilbert, Carbon Direct: I admire Christiana Figueres, the Costa Rican diplomat and former Executive Secretary of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, for her leadership in negotiating the Paris Agreement and well beyond.

Frederick Douglass is also deeply inspiring to me. He’s known for his work in abolition here in the US and was also a leader in foreign affairs. He reminds me of what it means to “make a way out of no way.”

Lastly, the mentorship of Peggy Dulany, Chair of Synergos, and the leadership lessons of her late father, David Rockefeller, are very moving and impactful to me.

Behrman, NationSwell: What works are you reading that are inspiring you right now?

Gilbert, Carbon Direct: There’s a book of poems by Aja Monet called “My Mother Was a Freedom Fighter” that immediately comes to mind. I would also mention “The Alchemy of Finance” by George Soros and “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions” by Thomas S. Kuhn as directly informing and inspiring my perspectives on transformative leadership.

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To learn more about how our ESG Next honorees are shaping business as a force for social and environmental good, visit the series hub. To learn more about NationSwell’s community of our country’s leading social impact and sustainability practitioners, visit our site.

At a moment of unprecedented attention, investment, and opportunity for the emerging field of ESG, leaders are asking: Who is best preparing their organization for the society of the future? Who is innovating today to meet decades-long environmental and social goals? Who is setting standards that catalyze their industry’s change for the better? Who is defining what bold and aspirational work looks like — and how best to advance that work in practice?

Enter NationSwell’s ESG Next, an exemplary group of social impact and sustainability leaders who are shaping business as a force for social and environmental progress, advancing — and even pioneering — the most forward-thinking and effective programs, initiatives, technologies, methodologies, practices, and approaches.

Greg Behrman, NationSwell CEO and founder, sat down with George Serafeim, Charles M. Williams Professor of Business Administration at the Harvard Business School and author of “Purpose and Profit: How Business Can Lift Up the World,” to discuss the current state of the field of ESG, why criticism of the field — even bad faith or partisan criticism — can be a good thing, and the integral ways that purpose and profit depend on one another. Here’s what he had to say.

Greg Behrman, CEO + Founder, NationSwell: Was there a moment in your life that drove you to purpose-driven work?

George Serafeim, Harvard Business School: Growing up in Athens, Greece, I witnessed the golden years of our country — years marked by a tremendous amount of growth. But at the same time, I witnessed that if you don’t have transparency in a system, then you don’t have accountability — and if you don’t have accountability, you actually don’t have meritocracy. I witnessed  all the bad outcomes that come from that lack: a 25% decline in gross domestic product, a lot of people losing their livelihoods and their quality of life, a lot of people going into unemployment, and, as a result, a tremendous amount of pain.

Witnessing that has shaped my belief that transparency is extremely important for building accountability — and therefore meritocracy — in society. I think historically, we in America have had very little transparency about the extent to which organizations are impacting the environment and society around them. For me, it was almost like connecting dots — it led to a lot of my work around creating measurement, and metrics, and increased levels of transparency because once you can measure stuff, then you can start building momentum and unleashing waves of innovation that can improve outcomes.

That has been the story of ESG in the last decade.

Behrman, NationSwell: As you think about this field of ESG, where are we now? How do you assess this current moment?

Serafeim: There was no field of ESG a few years ago — and that is very important to recognize because when you create a field, you’re also trying to educate people about the need for a field. And then you scramble to put a field together using the best available tools that you have, the best data that you have, the best frameworks, the best models, the best learnings, the best of everything. Much like product development, you have a minimum viable product (MVP) of a field.

In the beginning phase, there would be people at an organization responsible for ESG and sustainability, and they might not even be in the right places in terms of organizational structure. Think about a tech company where the tech people have no idea what’s happening on the sustainability side.

But now we’re a step or two past this MVP stage, and we actually understand what works and what doesn’t, and we have an understanding of what we need to do to improve it, and improve the infrastructure around it. ESG is more and more incorporated into what an organization does, its core products and services. We’re creating guardrails around what the field of ESG should be. Now it’s a matter of actually improving the field.

Behrman, NationSwell: Does it advance us past the MVP stage to incorporate ESG throughout the core of the organization, as opposed to as an ancillary appendage?

Serafeim: Absolutely. It requires a different mindset. It requires us to ask, “How can we make a profit by having a more positive impact on the world?” instead of treating profit and purpose as disparate entities wherein we’d be asking ourselves how we can distribute the profit that we’ve already created based on some ESG consideration.  

The evolution in thinking we need actually requires ESG to be integrated into the important functions of our organization — it is an entirely different mindset.

Behrman, NationSwell: What is the next big step we have to take as a field — and how do we unlock it?

Serafeim, HBS: The first step is a systemic level of impact measurement and evaluation. We need to get to a world where we actually have comparable, reliable, and relevant impact measurement and evaluation inside organizations. This is what we have been working on with impact-weighted accounts. We also need more collaboration across organizations. Many of the environmental and social challenges that we’re facing require collaboration across multiple companies, across value chains, so that needs to happen more. 

Behrman, NationSwell: Are impact-weighted accounts the answer to systematic evaluation and measurement — or does it need further development?

Serafeim, HBS: I think it still needs further development, for sure. So, as context, we created the idea of impact-weighted accounts about two and a half years ago. And now, it is an idea that has spread worldwide, from the United States to China. And we’re seeing the idea of impact-weighted accounts applied in companies, in investment firms, by policy makers in cities and municipalities, everywhere around the world. I don’t know if it will be the ultimate solution, but I do know that it is a step in the right direction, where we need to systematically measure the environmental and social outcomes that we’re creating, and the value of those outcomes. We need to understand the value that we’re achieving because allocating scarce resources is a very difficult task, and that understanding would help us to prioritize those resources. 

Behrman, NationSwell: What are some takeaways from “Purpose and Profit” that help advance the way that the field’s leaders think about ESG

Serafeim, HBS:  I wrote this book because when I reflect back on my experience, I think we went from a world where very few people that went into business were asking, “What is the purpose of business? What is the purpose of me, specifically, going into business?” 

I have witnessed a tremendous amount of change, and I’m fortunate to be sitting in a seat where I observe hundreds of young people going into business every year, and whose decisions about their careers are being guided by the central questions of, “How can I make a difference? What is the impact that I will have?”

So, I wanted to write the book around two questions. The first one is, “What has changed?” And the second one is, “What can I do about it as an individual?”  I think there are many people that are extremely competent at telling other people what to do, but the most important question to me as an individual, manager, entrepreneur, young person — whatever that might be — it’s always about what I can do within my own organization. And as a result, the book is focused on both trying to understand what has changed, and how I should think about those issues within the context of my own individual career. 

This is what brought me to profit and purpose. I put them together because purpose is extremely important: it motivates action, and it energizes people.  But at the same time, the pursuit of profit is also very, very important because in business, if you actually cannot be profitable, then you won’t be in business for a long time, and you will fail the people you’re serving, to whom you have promised to deliver impact. Profit allows you to scale up, hire more people, create jobs, and provide products. So, the question is: How do we take them both together,  balance them out, and ensure we have a great mix of the two?

The business environment has changed in pretty significant ways. Technology has been a fundamental driver of that change in the operating context. Let’s look at employees. If you go back 30 years ago and you were trying to find a job in a completely different state, that was quite challenging, right?  But now, because of advancements in technology like LinkedIn, you would be able to actually make a choice that was not available to you before.

The same is true for consumers: not only has choice changed, but voice has, too. Now, most of the competitiveness of organizations is actually driven by things like social capital, the trust that you have from society to the brand that you’re offering; intellectual capital, the collective ingenuity of all your employees; and of course, human capital and natural capital as well. As a result, because of all of those more intangible assets that businesses depend on, the voice of people — of consumers, employees, and stakeholders — has become a really important driver of strategic decision-making and value inside organizations.

My book also gives guidance to readers about actions they can take to align their convictions and values with their careers. As an example, if you are extremely passionate about addressing an environmental issue like climate change, or a social issue like diversity and inclusion, you have some choices. The first one is: you can choose to find employment in a place that maximizes the alignment of your purpose to begin with — like an environmentally conscious person choosing to work with a solar energy company. Individuals making choices like this value that level of alignment right from the beginning. 

Others might choose to join organizations where the level of alignment might be low in the beginning, but what they actually value is the rate of change. These people might join a traditional energy company and you try to make a difference by changing that company. We all make different choices and we need to be thinking about those parameters in a systematic way when we think about our own individual purpose and impact at the workplace.

Behrman, NationSwell: There’s political pushback against ESG, and there’s measures of skepticism towards ESG from various quarters of the investment community. Does this criticism impede progress, or is there a world in which all of this is helpful, that the pushback sharpens folks and helps them pressure test their ambitions?

Serafeim, HBS: It would be a shame if the field of ESG becomes a partisan political issue. I view it as a field of development, where it actually becomes part of our management and our governance, that people incorporate into their career pathways — that leads to organizations collectively seeing more positive outcomes.  To me, that is not a Democratic or a Republican issue, it’s a human aspiration issue.

Now, I know that many people view it as a political issue, and it would be a shame if we cannot actually shake it and say, “This is about human aspirations, and how we move forward, and how we actually improve real outcomes.”

When it comes to criticism, there’s lots of it that is quite helpful to advancing the field of ESG. I have written papers that could be construed as a criticism of ESG because I think we should improve things — if you don’t criticize it, how else can you improve?

That said, there are criticisms of ESG that are driven by incentives, personal agendas, and misconstructions of what a concept might be.  I would separate those out because I don’t think they’re helpful, and they serve very specific purposes. But taking a step back from those, the fact that there’s criticism is a good thing because it means interest in the field is peaking, that it’s making a difference, because if it’s not, nobody would care. So the fact that there’s pushback, helpful and unhelpful, means that after a long period of time ESG is finally really affecting things.

For anyone working in an administration position in an organization, it’s important to filter the criticism, keep the good ones that actually can be helpful in improving your organization, filter out the ones that are not helpful, and then feel good about the fact that there’s any criticism at all — because it means the field is actually making a difference. 

Behrman, NationSwell:  Who are some of the ESG practitioners whom you admire?

Serafeim, HBS: Social Finance, led by Tracy Palandjian, is an organization that for me is incredible, it’s amazing the amount of work that they have been doing there. We’re working with another organization, the Value Balancing Alliance out of Germany, they are an incredible organization as well.  

I have been impressed by many people, and one of my personal favorites is Sir Ronald Cohen. The fact that he has been able to be a serial social entrepreneur catalyzing the whole impact investing movement and going strong for 50 years with the conviction and the vision to drive forward things that — for many people — look unimaginable or impossible.

Ilham Kadri, the CEO of Solvay, is someone that has always deeply impressed me. Her vision around sustainability, advanced materials, and how we can actually use technology in science to move forward is something that I have admired a lot. 

Sarah Williamson at FCLT is a pragmatic, collaborative leader who has really made a difference when it comes to how large institutions everywhere around the world are thinking about the issues of long-term prosperity.

And I’d round that out with some scholars and academics: Harvard Business School’s previous and current deans, Nitin Nohria and Srikant Datar, who both demonstrate an enormous amount of intellectual rigor and capacity to implement and visualize the future with conviction for where a long established legacy organization like Harvard Business School needs to go. Lastly, Rebecca Henderson is one of the most important global scholars of our age. I’ve learned a lot from them.

There are so many great organizations and practitioners — I would say what they usually say, that it takes a village, is just so true when it comes to that. We’re talking about system change, and system change takes a lot of people.

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To learn more about how our ESG Next honorees are shaping business as a force for social and environmental good, visit the series hub. To learn more about NationSwell’s community of our country’s leading social impact and sustainability practitioners, visit our site.

At a moment of unprecedented attention, investment, and opportunity for the emerging field of ESG, leaders are asking: Who is best preparing their organization for the society of the future? Who is innovating today to meet decades-long environmental and social goals? Who is setting standards that catalyze their industry’s change for the better? Who is defining what bold and aspirational work looks like — and how best to advance that work in practice?

Enter NationSwell’s ESG Next, an exemplary group of social impact and sustainability leaders who are shaping business as a force for social and environmental progress, advancing — and even pioneering — the most forward-thinking and effective programs, initiatives, technologies, methodologies, practices, and approaches.

To kick off the series, Greg Behrman, NationSwell’s CEO + founder, interviewed Rose Stuckey Kirk, Chief Corporate Social Responsibility Officer at Verizon, who talked to us about the importance of professionalizing the field of ESG, the false premise that leaders have to choose between business opportunity and social good, and the art of “walking the halls” of your company to achieve internal buy-in on your impact initiatives. 

Greg Behrman, CEO + Founder, NationSwell: Is there a defining life experience or circumstance that drew you to social impact and sustainability work?

Rose Stuckey Kirk, Chief of Corporate Social Responsibility, Verizon: I grew up in a small, somewhat rural community in Arkansas, about 60,000 people at the time. My neighborhood was comprised of people who looked out for each other. If I was on my front porch when I was a little girl, I could hear the neighbors next door on their front porch. And I could hear the adults having very interesting conversations as they discussed ways to solve the issues of the city. At the same time, they were also keeping an eye out for the kids playing outside. I remember many times when an adult would pause mid-sentence and yell at someone else’s kid to course-correct their behavior.

So I grew up with this sense of the porch as a place where interesting conversations happen, where people were looking not inward, but outward; and looking outward meant sharing big ideas about the community and the world.  

All of that shaped my approach to what I do, and how I think about the world at large and communities in particular.  At a basic level, I believe we all have a responsibility to each other and a responsibility to lift up our communities.

Despite this belief, when I was building my corporate career, I had my hard hat on. It was all about P&L, and taking on really big challenges, and driving revenue, and managing sales forces, and managing union employees.  

And so when I ended up with the opportunity to focus on corporate social responsibility, it wasn’t called ESG — it was more like your company had a philanthropic arm — I was asked to take that on and make it more central and core to the strategy of Verizon.

I came into it with an agreement that it was just going to be a two-year gig, and I could go do something else afterward. But I ended up really falling in love with it because I saw so much opportunity, and so much of a space where we could think through where the world is going, where society is going, and what has to undergird decisions that we make in the business space that drive revenue — decisions that we need to make to connect our societal arm to that same space.  I remember so many conversations with one of our former CEOs encouraging me to move back into the P&L function of the business, but I honestly had no interest. I had found my happy place. 

Behrman, NationSwell:  You’ve been a leader and practitioner of ESG for some time now, and you’ve seen interesting ebbs and flows in the field. What is your assessment of this moment? How do you make sense of where we are? What are the biggest opportunities? What are the biggest watch outs or challenges about the current moment?

Kirk, Verizon: I think for anyone who has been in this field for a while, it is probably the dream that we all wanted — for this space to be viewed as important and central to a company and its strategy. But how we professionalize this space at this moment is really important:  When we hire an attorney or a lawyer, we expect a level of education or schooling, and that they have been a practitioner; when we hire an accountant, we have the same expectation. I believe that the space needs that same level of qualifications, that we are clear about how we build these ESG strategies, and that all of it is aligned with our business strategy.

It means not putting people in these roles whose qualification is their passion for purpose-driven work, but putting people in who are really capable of building qualified, scalable, measurable, authentic work. 

The big watch out of the current moment is that we’re being held accountable. Regulators are asking, “What are these targets? What are you guys talking about? What is really real here?” The sustainability space is under attack and many companies are beginning to do green-hushing. The amount of shareholder proposals and challenges to the work is mounting at a fast rate. But from my vantage point, all that is saying is that companies need to see this work and category as a professional aspect of their business. 

Collectively, this space and this scrutiny is about holding companies accountable. Authenticity matters. And that means not touting how great you are for the planet if your business and operations aren’t aligned with that; don’t jump on the racial justice bandwagon if you’re not willing to hold your leadership accountable for execution throughout the organization. I love how disciplined Verizon is about these things. We’re not fans of moonshot targets. We’re all about doing what we say and holding ourselves accountable.  

I think I drive people crazy in my ecosystem by asking, “What’s the target? What are we solving for? Was this good? Was it not? Is this a good use of time and money?” Because you can’t say after the fact it was good. You have to have everybody aligned on what we’re achieving, and then demonstrate that it was good against that set of objectives. And I’m really disciplined around that approach.

Behrman, NationSwell: How is your work at Verizon helping to professionalize the field? 

Kirk, Verizon: The first thing is the staff that I have hired. My team is comprised of experts from the education, environmental, social innovation, marketing, and finance space. It’s really interesting watching them do their jobs. They approach the work from a real customer-centric, insight-driven space. Then, those insights are used to actually create programs that align with our overarching business strategy at Verizon. 

The second thing is the manner in which Verizon investigates our work and holds us accountable for understanding issues across the spectrum, aligning the work with the priorities of the business, driving real outcomes, and demonstrating the true impact of the work. There is a strong emphasis on auditing the work and the outcomes that we communicate. Our disciplined approach to managing cost-per-program, evaluating the outcomes from our partners, and moving partners along a delivery continuum is truly best-in-class. 

The third approach is the need to really understand how Verizon makes money and the role that our work plays in contributing to that.  The work that we do requires a level of discipline across our entire ecosystem. As a result, the partners who work with us are finding that they are leveling up as well. Take for example our work in education: If you are one of our partner schools, the level of technology integration we require to be incorporated into our schools — everything from 5G labs to new 5G applications — requires our partners to aggressively enhance their understanding of edtech and the school districts to enhance their IT and other technology departments. I think this latter point shows how you can extend and expand the professional development space because of your work. The majority of my education team comes from the sector. They have spent time in classrooms in vulnerable school districts. They understand the need, they get the pedagogy.

Behrman, NationSwell: How do you think about the relationship between business opportunity and social good? Do you start with one, and then think about the other?

Kirk, Verizon: I don’t know that you have to think about one before the other. You first should consider the company you work for, the assets you have, and how you can leverage them to drive societal good and potentially drive revenue. Honestly, this is easier to do when your offerings are tangible — think consumer goods. But, if you do the right level of insight work and partner well with the business, you’ll find your social innovation opportunities. 

I don’t want my team to ever be in a situation where they’re not valued. I don’t want them to be in a situation where they’re viewed as just fluff. I want really smart people that can inform the business, that are called into meetings because of their expertise, and that’s what I love. 

You must have a good strategy, the right staff, and then you’ve got to “walk the halls” to get buy-in to your strategy at the top of the house, and then be hyper-focused on outcomes. I work out of a big building with 3,000 people in it with really, really long hallways. And I used to tell my team, “I’ve got to go walk the halls, and I’ve got to get the CFO to buy into this, or, “I’ve got to get the marketing person to buy into it,” or, “I have to get IT to be willing to support it.”

When you build programs that have demonstrative measurable outcomes, you can show people the connective tissue.  Bear in mind that you might not be able to add the big, big value that you’re trying to add immediately, and it’s going to be a space where you need the business to buy into the time that it will take. But when you look at that, you’ve got to sit down and get inside of people’s heads with what they think about what you’re doing. 

I think often, people walk the hall and say, “Here’s my idea. Do you support it?” I tend to say,  “Here’s what I’m thinking of — tell me where there are holes and issues.” And I say that because one of the things I have found is that most people really like to build with you. They like to be collaborative if you give them the chance. In doing that, you get the watch outs.  When you do it up and down the value chain,  you are creating a space where people can engage and help you tie it more closely to the business.

If there’s an art to walking the halls; it’s making sure that you set a vision, you set a strategy, you know where you’re going, but you don’t sell it without getting the buy-in and without people being able to edit it. And what I love about doing that is by the time I get into the big room and the big meeting, everyone says, “Yeah. Yeah. I’m aligned. Yeah, Rose came and talked to me. She spent an hour with me on it. I’m aligned.” 

Behrman, NationSwell: What are some of the habits you practice that make you an effective leader?

Kirk, Verizon: I try to pay attention to the details. I know how this business makes money. I know where I can lean in and who I can go poke to get engaged. I’ve developed great relationships with the entire leadership table, and those are the direct reports of the CEO. I have a great relationship with the CEO. I know how to ask for help, and I know how to apply that help. And then I also know how to set a strategy, how to enable my team with the right tools, and then get the heck out of their way and let them be able to implement.

And I love it when they say, “Yeah, I hear you, but,” or, “You asked for this, but,” or, “Okay, you asked for this, but you couldn’t see these other 10 things, so I’m giving you something that’s even better than what you asked for.” And I love that. 

It’s about getting to a comfortable level in life where you can confidently get out of the way of your team, but not become disengaged, and not shrug off your responsibility so you’re still there to fight the good fight when it’s necessary. And so I think that that’s a little bit about the leadership style, and I’m so glad that it resonates across the business, and that people see that leadership, and that passion —  and my badassery when I have to be a badass.

I  also love challenging people to go places that make them feel uncomfortable and turn projects and initiatives upside down. Everyone grows as a result. 

Behrman, NationSwell: Who and what is inspiring your leadership right now?

Kirk, Verizon: I have stacks and stacks of books next to me, but I prefer to turn to my people for inspiration and insight. My team lets me know when my leadership style needs to be tweaked or fixed. It’s that learning and feedback I get from my peers: They will tell me when I need to hold back or rethink. And listening to my team and my peers, and watching the creativity that comes from them, to me is the best business lesson there is because it is real, and it is authentic, and it is helpful, and it is aligned with the world in which I live. 

And in terms of who I admire, when I first took over this role, I called Laysha Ward. Laysha is an executive vice president at Target.  I called Laysha because I had such respect for what Target was doing years ago. They set the standard for how to bring consumers into the work and to see value in it. Laysha did not know me. But, she took my call and was so generous with her time and advice. I’ll never forget that.  I have incredible respect for her and the legacy work that she did and that she continues to do. For me, your value is that you can leave a legacy; so much so that the next person who comes in behind you sees such an impact that they don’t drop your work and turn to something else, and others who once worked for you take your blueprint to other companies and duplicate your activity. That is real leadership. 

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To learn more about how our ESG Next honorees are shaping business as a force for social and environmental good, visit the series hub. Verizon is a NationSwell Institutional Member. To learn more about membership in NationSwell’s community of leading social impact and sustainability practitioners, visit our site.